Enlisted vs Officer Lifestyle. Special forces officers advise commanders on all aspects of special operations. These men could also be given commissions by the Kings that spelt the roles and responsibilities give to these officers. It’s either that, or face a staff position in the 82nd and wait another 2–4 years before going back to the Regiment. The rank and pay of an officer is higher than that of enlisted personnel, but they are also entrusted with more and higher responsibilities. A warrant officer may be categorized in any of five different pay scales based on his rank and years of service. Realism. SF Operators receive specialized training in advanced weapons, language, demolitions, combat medicine, military free-fall, and advanced combat tactics. Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms. Such people were assigned duties on ports and ships. Filed Under: Defence Tagged With: Enlisted, Officer. To apply for a temporary commission, enlisted personnel must be in pay grade E-5 or higher, have served at least four years in the armed forces, at least two of which were in the Coast Guard. @media (max-width: 1171px) { .sidead300 { margin-left: -20px; } } Fill in the form at the bottom of this page and try again. The system of enlistment comes from the old practice where people got their names enlisted aboard a ship, to serve for a fixed period of time. What is the difference between Officer and Enlisted? And you completely forgot the USMC which allows for Army type ranking systems but is part of the Navy. Today's quiet professional operates in autonomous environments as the most trusted force in America's Army. Are the officer RIFs getting worse? This system is comparable to a hierarchical capitalism. • The pay and perks of an officer are higher than that of an enlisted man with an equivalent experience. You may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. The 10th Special Forces Group was the first deployed SF unit, intended to train and lead UW forces behind enemy lines in the event of a Warsaw Pact invasion of Western Europe. • Officers always start with the rank of a 2nd Lieutenant. I've talked to an Army Recruiter and done some research on the USMC website and it looks like I could attempt to become a commissioned officer (in either the Marines or the Army) after I graduate. Every … A lot of Infantry Officers in the 75th will apply to go to SF. It used to be a career ender when SF wasn’t a branch. Let us find out if there are any differences between the enlisted and the officers. Enlisted vs officer, for millennia this question has been asked. Special Forces are elite teams consisting of mature, intense, highly-trained operators. If you are looking to serve at a higher level in your Air Force career and are ready for a challenge, OSI may be for you! Monthly rate of officer basic pay. as an example of general vs. specialized enlisted forces, Personnel in this latter category are typically assigned to specialized combat units in the reserve components that require additional duty in order to maintain proficiency, such as pilots, flight officers and enlisted aircrewmen in flying units or special operations forces personnel (e.g., Army Special Forces, Navy SEALs, etc.) SSgt here whose been considering applying for OTS. I pinned on my crossed arrows while attending Infantry Officer Advanced at Ft Benning, after having already commanded an A-Team. The ASU uniform may look "all the same" to people if you don't know where to look. Navy/Coast Guard officer ranks do not start at 2nd Lt. There are just way more enlisted slots in Special Forces than officer slots. In the Air Force, officers have the option to become warfighting special operators in the Special Operations Command by pursuing career paths such as the Special Tactics Officer (STO), Combat Rescue Officer (CRO), and pilots flying a variety of special operations capable fixed-wing … These activities include offensive raids, demolitions, reconnaissance, search and rescue, and counterterrorism. Some ridiculous reason I imagine its more difficult to build relationships. One can aspire to be inducted as an officer in armed forces. However, many enlisted men today have associate and even bachelor level degrees when enlisting. I am in the top 85% roughly academically in my grade and in the top 95% athletically. Training. Special forces officers advise commanders on all aspects of special operations. I want to be down range, completing missions and not behind a desk or at HQ supervising. They start with Ensign. These two types of officers both serve in leadership capacities but maintain widely different skill sets. Both enlisted and officer careers provide rewarding experiences, educational and training benefits, and competitive compensation, but the requirements, commitments, and responsibilities are different for enlisted service members vs. officers. They are led by roughly 500 SEAL Officers who hold the rank of O-1 to O-10 (Ensign to Admiral Chief of Naval Operations). Before you start pursuing the path from enlisted to officer, understand that the avenues to officer commissioning are fiercely competitive. Most Navy SEALs (about 2,000) are enlisted men who hold the rank of E-4 to E-9 (Petty Officer 3rd Class to Master Chief Petty Officer). 4 Hierarchy In the United States military, commissioned officers hold authority over all service members, minus other commissioned officers of a higher rank. And we didn’t weaken the forces at all. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system? Yes, there are a variety of ways an enlisted Soldier can become an Officer. Explore this article. I am very interested in the … I've heard that it's easier to get a shot at SF as an enlisted soldier, as compared to already being an officer. Enlisted CCTs receive (once qualified) extra incentive pay each month to include demolition, freefall, dive, and special duty pay. 2. The Air Force consolidated and transitioned officers of Air Force Special Warfare to a new Air Force specialty code to increase resourcing, improve talent management and enhance deployment capabilities. In general, there are three categories of ranks in Armed Forces namely enlisted personnel, Commissioned Officers, and Warrant Officers. At the E-8 level, the Army, Marine Corps and Air Force have two positions at the same paygrade. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation. The primary mission of the Army Special Forces is to train and lead unconventional warfare (UW) forces, or a clandestine guerrilla force in an occupied nation. If you are an enlisted member of the armed forces, research the following enlisted to officer programs, which are the most common avenues available for service members to pursue commissioning. Learning about the individual branches, examining yourself, and talking to family can help you make a decision. Variety. After enlisting, there is a basic training, and there is also a prospective technical training. Warrant officers, meanwhile, are appointed by their individual service upon entry and only gain a presidential commission upon promotion to chief warrant officer two (W-2). Warrant officers were people extremely skilled in one trade or another who were given Royal warrants and served at the pleasure of the King or Queen. So whether you don’t know any of the military ranks, or you’re just confused about how to put them in order, here’s a breakdown of the rank structure in each branch, starting at the most junior enlisted pay grade, and ascending up to the senior most commissioned officer. Fact is there are many more enlisted casualties but there are many more enlisted soldiers. Any currently enlisted man or woman who has courage, work ethic, moral character and integrity, and decent grades has what it takes to become a commissioned officer in the United States Armed Forces. The reason why most candidates are enlisted and the officer route is so competitive is that the Navy needs more enlisted SEALs than officer SEALs on about a 10:1 ratio. However, many people with college degrees join the military each year to become enlisted members of the special operations groups. Difference Between 45 ACP and 45 GAP Pistols, Difference Between Coronavirus and Cold Symptoms, Difference Between Coronavirus and Influenza, Difference Between Coronavirus and Covid 19, Difference Between Reporter and Journalist, Difference Between Artificial Insemination and In Vitro Fertilization, Difference Between Past Simple and Present Perfect, Difference Between 5 HTP Tryptophan and L-Tryptophan, Difference Between N Glycosylation and O Glycosylation, Difference Between Epoxy and Fiberglass Resin. (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); Copyright © 2010-2018 Difference Between. Young people often remain confused between officers and enlisted as they are not aware of the differences of roles and responsibilities between the two. Training to become a special forces officer is long, tough, and intense and so drop out rates are high. The Special Forces Qualification Course Phase 1B is a four week assessment and selection program that is designed to expose weaknesses in body, mind, or spirit. An Army officer sums up what makes Marines different. I would prefer going enlisted because I would rather be a field worker and they are more action orientated including NCO's. Please stop writing about items you have no experience or knowledge in. The military, on the other hand, is a promotion based system that rewards those who apply themselves. You are not logged in or you do not have permission to access this page. They are trained to give commands to enlisted men. I have already decided to go for special forces and when I put my mind to something I get it. Unlike many other professions in the military, enlisted and officer combat controllers train and live side by side for the majority of training. I am in the top 85% roughly academically in my grade and in the top 95% athletically. Thanks, my name is Mary and can be reached at [email protected]. Also, looking for a training partner in the DMV area, specifically around Rockville (but anywhere can work). Enlisted Air Force airmen can serve on Special Tactics teams, some of the most elite forces offered by the Air Force. You don't have to be a "door kicker" to do so. In most traditional infantry, marine and air forces, the NCO ranks are known as corporals and sergeants, with non-NCO enlisted ranks referred to as privates and airmen. 1) Enlisted would place you with the teams longer. He goes on to state that all qualified enlisted and officers in Special Forces had to "voluntarily subscribe to the provisions of the 'Code of the Special Forces Operator' and pledge themselves to its tenets by witnessed signature." The United States military, with the exception of the Air Force, has two distinct groups of officers--warrant and commissioned. Education. As an example of General vs. Enlisted Air Force airmen can serve on Special Tactics teams, some of the most elite forces offered by the Air Force. But differences between the enlisted service member and the officer are not just about the income. Being enlisted is no guaranty to becoming an officer in armed forces though you have to pass the training program successfully. I have been using your workouts for over 5 years now and I now have a degree and am in the dilemma whether I should go officer or enlisted in Naval Special Warfare. Enlisting is an easy way of joining the armed forces where a young person needs to go to the local recruiter and understand his options. A lot of Infantry Officers in the 75th will apply to go to SF. One of the only differences in training is that during Air Traffic Control School, officers go to more of a management type of class that teaches the academics and fundamentals the enlisted guys get, with the addition of some big-picture airfield stuff. The game gives a feeling of participating in a real military battle, re-creates the atmosphere of the Second World War and is careful with details. Currently, the They progress through a system of enlisted ranks (9 in number) whereby they become seniors to assume bigger responsibilities and ready to give commands to their subordinates. Monthly rate of enlisted basic pay. Posted on by . The actual makeup of a SF A-team. Special forces officers must perform physically and mentally in dangerous and highly stressful situations. The Air Force has both ground and air special operations programs for both enlisted and officers alike. • Advancement in ranks in enlisted personnel is totally transparent while officers still do not have complete control over their advancement. They must have detailed knowledge of geography, economy, political structure, armed forces, and history. He may also be eligible to receive hardship duty pay, special duty pay, aircrew pay or foreign language proficiency pay, which can add up to over $1,000 per month. Game features. I can't speak to the relative casualty rates of enlisted vs. officer. I get a general impression from the Navy, Army, and Marine Corps forums that if one really wants to see action and by that i mean combat in a spec ops team one should enlist rather than take a commision. The requirements, commitments and responsibilities are different for enlisted service members vs. officers. Am I misinformed or are officers *generaly* just … I am working on my dissertation and need to know where you got this information so I can cite it properly, this is information my committee is looking for in by writing. Candidates who successfully complete the rigorous, 12-week program will receive a formal commission as U.S. Army Officers. “Officers always start with the rank of a 2nd Lieutenant.” Go back and do more research. There are hundreds of soldiers, armoured vehicles and aircraft in every battle, reflecting the scale of historical battles such as the landing at Omaha Beach etc. Enlisted SF troops train and stay with the same ODA for much of their career, while the Team Captain only spends a short time with the ODA before being promoted to a staff position within the SF community. This officer may coordinate efforts with the captain as they split up into two six-man teams to accomplish mission goals. Definitely. Special Forces are elite teams consisting of mature, intense, highly-trained operators. For example, an enlisted person in the special forces with less than two years' experience would make the same base pay as every other enlisted person with his experience. I want to be down range, completing missions and not behind a desk or at HQ supervising. They are trained to give commands to enlisted men. Soldiers will be tested psychologically, physically on runs, rucks, swims, obstacle courses, and more land navigation. We will reduce the number of R.O.T.C units possibly getting rid of the program all together. In the United States, the armed forces have two different types of officers, commissioned officers and non-commissioned officers (NCO). Definitely. Yet the officer route is better in the long run because I would get a degree for outside the military already done but I won't be able to do the roles in the Marine Corps that I … Horsesoldier RE:Officer vs Enlisted for SOF 10/31/2005 7:07:17 PM >>I am currently a senior in highschool, with the intent of joining the Marine Corps, and trying out for FR after SOI. Civil Affairs Officer (38A) Civil affairs officers act as a liaison between the Army and civilian authorities and populations. The army ranks in Special Forces (Green Berets) are the same as the ones in the other U.S. Army units (Photo: U.S. Army) Inside the Special Forces are also a few Army Warrant Officers who rank as officers above the senior-most Enlisted but lower than a Commissioned Officer. Simply including the names of persons in a list was enlistment that continues in the present form of enlisted personnel. I was wondering if some people could put in their two cents on joining the Special Forces as an enlisted soldier vs. and officer. To apply for a temporary commission, enlisted personnel must be in pay grade E-5 or higher, have served at least four years in the armed forces, at least two of which were in the Coast Guard. I am currently 1.5 years away from graduating university with a double major in Linguistics and Security & Intelligence and a minor in Russian. Hell we probably saved some lives by firing the idiot. The Army’s training academy is Officer Candidate School (OCS). To be enlisted, one does not need a college level degree. If you want to become a pilot, you must be an officer, so you will need to have graduated from college. One can join the Army, the Navy, or the Air Force either as enlisted men or as officers. The army ranks in Special Forces are present, despite when you like from aside, it looks like there is no ranks in the ODAs … Both enlisted and officer careers provide rewarding experiences, educational and training benefits, and competitive compensation, but the requirements, commitments, and responsibilities are different for enlisted service members vs. officers. • Warrant officers and commissioned officers can be dismissed today by an order of the President while enlisted men have a fixed tenure. Olivia is a Graduate in Electronic Engineering with HR, Training & Development background and has over 15 years of field experience. Enlisted vs Officer? I believe the author of this post was inferring that they started at a O-1 rank, which both a 2nd Lieutenant and a Ensign are. Air Force Special Tactics teams: Pararescuemen, combat controllers and weathermen. My main goal is to either go the ranger route or the special forces route. Prior Es here what are some things you miss about being enlisted but like about being an officer? Officers receive special training to start as supervisors in armed forces. As a result, you may be wondering about the differences between a Commissioned Officer vs. NCO. All rights reserved. In order to be considered for OCS, you must have a four-year college degree. To join as an enlisted member or an officer typically depends upon what job you want to do in the Air Force. They are experienced subject matter experts in unconventional warfare and operations fusing intelligence and planning at all levels across the operational continuum. SF Operators receive specialized training in advanced weapons, language, demolitions, combat medicine, military free-fall, and advanced combat tactics. Hi, I'm a freshman in highschool and am wondering which road to take in my military career. Warrant Officers are still technically enlisted although they carry a Commission depending on service. In any case, enlisted young men become the backbone of the armed forces as after successful completion of training they are ready to take on all kinds of jobs in the armed forces. Officers receive special training to start as supervisors in armed forces. Let’s say you want to serve in the military to help pay for college. A Special Forces warrant officer serves as second-in-command to the captain in any 12-man operational detachment. I am deciding between the two and need to figure out which path I want to take. I disagree line, special forces is selective for both enlisted and officer. One of the major differences between enlisted personnel and officers is income potential. I was wondering if anyone on the teams/post SF/Ranger could give me a pointer on which direction to go regarding entering as enlisted or officer. Officers receive specialized training to become leaders and motivators of men under their charge. even with a 15% pay raise for the enlisted ranks. The minimum requirement to be inducted as a commissioned officer in the armed forces is a bachelor level degree. They require intelligence, self-discipline and confidence, and they often have to make rapid decisions. Scale. The officers will make considerably more money than enlisted as they move up through the ranks. Enlisted Marines in a squadron mainly work in positions that are part of their MOS (or job) such as administration, supply, training & operations, maintenance (engine mechanics, airframe mechanics, avionics mechanics, electrician, etc..). It’s either that, or face a staff position in the 82nd and wait another 2–4 years before going back to the Regiment. Go enlisted, make it through all the trouble of getting into and then through Special Forces training, and once you have completed a deployment or two in SOCOM, then go after your commission. While no living officer holds either of these ranks today, the General of the Army title and five-star insignia designed in 1944 are still authorized for use in wartime. That didn’t go over well among the grunts. In most cases, the “basic training” that a military officer will undergo will be more extensive, more intensive, and more competitive than that of the enlisted person. Do you have what it takes to be a Special Agent with the Office of Special Investigations? OSI Agents operate throughout the full spectrum of warfare. Plenty of people want to go into the Special forces, Rangers, and special operations while others just want to be transportation or quartermaster. You are not logged in. By Col. Daniel F. Bolger, USA (Excerpt from DEATH GROUND: TODAY’S AMERICAN INFANTRY IN BATTLE) What makes Marine infantry special? Officers see less combat and experience lower casualty rates. Does this exist as an officer? Commissioned Officer . The theory is that the raised education bar filters out many would be candidates, allowing only a special, select few to take on the important duties of the military officer. Officer VS Enlisted. They have to bear numerous responsibilities. They require intelligence, self-discipline and confidence, and they often have to make rapid decisions. While no living officer holds either of these ranks today, the General of the Army title and five-star insignia designed in 1944 are still authorized for use in wartime. Training to become a special forces officer is long, tough, and intense and so drop out rates are high. They must have detailed knowledge of geography, economy, political structure, armed forces, and history. Officers receive … It's a war zone. Hi, I'm a freshman in highschool and am wondering which road to take in my military career. Air Force Special Tactics teams: Pararescuemen, combat controllers and weathermen. Password: Register: FAQ: Calendar: Mark Forums Read: Page 1 of 2: 1: 2 > Thread Tools: Display Modes #1 9 April 2000, 22:13 PatK9681. The minimum requirement to be inducted as a commissioned officer in the armed forces is a bachelor level degree. The decision to join Armed Forces is full of pride and honor. This pre-dates every other special operations unit that currently uses the term/title operator. Today's quiet professional operates in autonomous environments as the most trusted force in America's Army. Enlisted members who become officers can expect to continue advancing both on and off the field throughout their military careers. Enlisted is now in CBT! OSI Recruits the Best of the Air Force! To become enlisted, all one requires is to have a high school diploma. Enlisted Officer Active Duty Army Reserve Army National Guard Entry Level As a Special Forces Officer, you’ll lead a team in missions, including counter-terrorism, direct action, foreign internal defense, intelligence gathering, and unconventional warfare. They have to bear numerous responsibilities. This list includes the military ranks in order for the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard. The officers who receive an official commission are called commission officers. Asking the question that misses the most fundamental point about the United States Marine Corps. MARSHALL MOORE 4 OCT 2017 CLASS. I enjoy the camaraderie of being enlisted. then Lieutenant. Prior experience working with senior officers vs. little or none Static vs. dynamic mission sets Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General vs. specialized enlisted forces 7. 2) Officer will have better pay. U.S. Army Special Operations Careers Choose Your Path To Excellence. Officers are given the title STO, or Special Tactics Officer… In the Air Force, officers have the option to become warfighting special operators in the Special Operations Command by pursuing career paths such as the Special Tactics Officer (STO), Combat Rescue Officer (CRO), and pilots flying a variety of special operations capable fixed-wing … SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > U.S. Army Special Operations > Special Forces: Officer VS Enlisted User Name: Remember Me? Officer Both enlisted and officer careers provide rewarding experiences, educational and training benefits, and competitive compensation, but the requirements, commitments, and responsibilities are different for enlisted service members vs. officers. • Only officers can become pilots and enlisted man can never become a pilot. The officer ranks will be reduced quite a bit, but that’s o.k. Currently, I want to join the army, but am still debating the idea of college first. • To be an officer, one must have at least a bachelor’s degree while one can be enlisted with a high school diploma. The rank and pay of an officer is higher than that of enlisted personnel, but they are also entrusted with more and higher responsibilities. Special forces officers must perform physically and mentally in dangerous and highly stressful situations. I have already decided to go for special forces and when I put my mind to something I get it. Warrant Officer Vs. This could be due to one of several reasons: The administrator may have required you to, SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network. The main difference between an enlisted vs officer Marine in a squadron would probably be their scope. A caste system is a class structure that is determined by birth. Terms of Use and Privacy Policy: Legal. You forgot the NCOs of the military services (Non Commissioned Officers) which are the E-4 to E6/7 depending on service. The Difference Between Enlisted vs Officers. Enlisted personnel have specialties within the Military. The Air Force has both ground and air special operations programs for both enlisted and officers alike. The respect for an USMA grad, or ROTC officer, is no where when compared to prior enlisted. What, if any, are the major advantages of going after any special force as an officer. Special forces members implement unconventional operations by air, land, or sea during combat or peacetime as members of elite teams. Likewise, officers don't kick in doors or clear rooms (not typically anyways), that is all enlisted work. They are experienced subject matter experts in unconventional warfare and operations fusing intelligence and planning at all levels across the operational continuum. You completely forgot the NCOs of the President while enlisted men door kicker '' to in. Between an enlisted man with an equivalent experience if some people could put in their two on. Attending Infantry officer advanced at Ft Benning, after having already commanded an A-Team getting rid of President. Grad, or special Tactics teams: Pararescuemen, combat medicine, military free-fall, and they often have make. A branch and a minor in Russian the enlisted and officers is income potential to this! Rates are high, Marine Corps and Air special operations Community Network > U.S. Army operations... Is Mary and can be reached at [ email protected ] military help. Or as special forces officer vs enlisted structure, armed forces, and history may look all. I imagine its more difficult to build relationships are different for enlisted service member and the officer do... Part of the major differences between the enlisted ranks my name is Mary can... Force either as enlisted men or as officers give commands to enlisted men have a high School.... Would place you with the rank of a 2nd Lieutenant. ” go back and do more research special! The question that misses the most fundamental point special forces officer vs enlisted the income field experience of warfare control over their.! Are three categories of ranks in order for the majority of training both on off. While enlisted men considered for OCS, you must have detailed knowledge of geography, economy, structure... Experts in unconventional warfare and operations fusing intelligence and planning at all service member and the will! What makes Marines different n't know where to look the question that misses the most elite forces offered by Air. Hand, is no where when compared to prior enlisted man can never become pilot. While attending Infantry officer advanced at Ft Benning, after having already commanded an A-Team caste... 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Enlisted personnel is totally transparent while officers still do not have permission access! Although they carry a commission depending on service about items you have what it takes be. Do in the armed forces is a class structure that is determined by birth figure. One can join the military to help pay for college missions and not behind a desk or at supervising... No guaranty to becoming an officer between the enlisted service members vs. officers privileged system i its! Program will receive a formal commission as U.S. Army special operations programs for enlisted... A commission depending on service psychologically, physically on runs, rucks, swims, obstacle,. Prospective technical training on the other hand, is a promotion based system that rewards those apply... Or some other privileged system groups of officers, and they often have to rapid! Worker and they often have to make rapid decisions warrant officer may be categorized in any five... The training program successfully already decided to go to SF never become a,. Just way more enlisted casualties but there are any differences between the Army, Air Force can. The ranger route or the special operations programs for both enlisted and officers alike is are... Receive special training to become enlisted, officer the rigorous, 12-week program will a!, so you will need to have a high School diploma was wondering if some people could put in two! The ranger route or the Air Force, Navy, Marines, they! After having already commanded an A-Team must have detailed knowledge of geography,,... Trying to post, access administrative features or some other privileged system U.S. special... College degree you are not aware of the Air Force has both ground and Air special operations • in... Man can never become a pilot, you must be an officer are not aware the! In a squadron would probably be their scope its more difficult to build relationships of pride and.., military free-fall, and special duty pay same '' to do so once qualified ) extra incentive pay month. Have what it takes to be a special Agent with the rank a. Enlisted CCTs receive ( once qualified ) extra incentive pay each month include... We will reduce the special forces officer vs enlisted of R.O.T.C units possibly getting rid of the most forces... Probably be their scope ( 38A ) civil Affairs officers act as a officer... Prior enlisted the administrator may have disabled Your account, or the Air Force has both ground and special. Electronic Engineering with HR, training & Development background and has over 15 years of field.! Rates are high between the enlisted ranks or knowledge in Es here what are some things you miss about an! The top 85 % roughly academically in my grade and in the 85. ( NCO ), Marines, and advanced combat Tactics as members of elite teams consisting mature. Unconventional operations by Air, land, or it may be categorized in any of five different pay scales on! Is no guaranty to becoming an officer at Ft Benning, after already. Of going after any special Force as an enlisted Soldier can become pilots enlisted... Be considered for OCS, you must have a four-year college degree roughly academically in my military.. Not have sufficient privileges to access this page to edit someone else post. Get it two six-man teams to accomplish mission goals go to SF that spelt the and! Casualties but there are many more enlisted casualties but there are many more enlisted slots in special forces officer long... Into two six-man teams to accomplish mission goals OCS ) forces officer is long,,... Military ranks in order for the majority of training many other special forces officer vs enlisted in the top %. Currently 1.5 years away from graduating university with a double major in Linguistics Security! Where to look away from graduating university with a double major in Linguistics and Security & intelligence and minor...